The forefathers of United States Army Special Operations Forces jumped into occupied France starting the night before D-Day. Known as Jedburghs, their mission was to arm, train and equip French resistance forces to conduct sabotage and subversion operations against a superior German force. These small 3-man teams changed the course of the war and gave birth to the Green Berets.
Today, Army Special Operations Forces are led by LTG John Braga, Commander of United States Army Special Operations Command. General Braga and Creator and Host Fran Racioppi stormed the Utah Beach Communication Bunker responsible for the coordination of German defenses and later the facilitation of the largest amphibious assault in history.
From this iconic setting, we unpacked the significance of World War II on international norms still in play today and challenged at a level not seen since the pre-war era. General Braga shared his vision for Army Special Operations, his focus on threat-informed decision-making, and how Special Operations has evolved; but more importantly where it needs to go and why it’s not there yet.
He also explains how Special Operations are preparing for conflict with nation-states like China and Iran, while also ensuring terrorist organizations have no sanctuary across the globe. Finally, we talk about integration, and why Special Operations is a critical node in the cyber and space fight deep behind enemy lines.
Check out our conversation from underneath Utah Beach. Head over to our YouTube channel or your favorite podcast platform to catch all our coverage from the 80th Anniversary of D-Day.
And don’t miss our first documentary, Unknown Heroes: Behind Enemy Lines at D-Day, the story of Operation Jedburgh available now only on YouTube.
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General Braga, welcome to the bunker in the Roosevelt Cafe on Utah Beach.
It’s awesome to be here, friend. Thanks for having me and this opportunity, especially in this location. Pretty unique and pretty
special.
Sources tell me that you’re a student of history and what I know.
I hope this is not a quiz.
Here’s the quiz. I figured before we get this thing rolling and get going, we should talk about where we are, what we’re doing, and what this place is. I’m going to be the expert now because I learned this before you came in. You only know that because I just told you but this right here is the map of the communications networks. Here in the center, this is where we are. The Germans used this bunker to communicate with all of the other trenched networks and personnel bunkers that line Utah Beach.
When the Americans came across Utah Beach, they captured this fairly quickly because this is only structures out there. They took the bunker and this became the node for the entire receipt of the rest of the forces that came across the beach for six months. They had planned for two weeks, then it went on and on. It became three months then it became six months because they ran everything out of here until they could get the port open.
Think about the significance of sitting here of what decisions were made from hours into the invasion to, as you said, months. I didn’t know that, so thanks for educating me on that. That is so cool. Love it.
This is a good spot. We’ve had the opportunity over the last couple of days to be here on the ground in Normandy for the 80th Anniversary in commemoration of D-Day. We sat down with the USASOC, Sergeant Major, and Chief Warrant Officer. We sat on the Resistance Monument. Sat up on the wall and talked all about the regiments. Specifically, where does the first Special Forces command go? We had the opportunity to sit down previously with General Ferguson.
I’ve sat down with General Beaurpere, Sergeant Major Strong, and Chief Ostrander at SWIC. We’ve run the gamut on the command. Now, I’m fortunate and I appreciate very much you taking the time out of your very busy schedule to sit down with me because we previously sat down with General Tovo a couple of years ago. Now, he’s Chairman of the Green Beret Foundation as the program in Green Beret Foundation. All things USASOC are near and dear to our hearts and now we got to hear it from the boss.
Thank you for what you’re doing, just getting the message out. I’m glad you got to interview all those people and each one has a unique story to tell. I know it’s awesome for the readers to read whether it’s General Beaurpere’s familial relationship to hear with his grandmother being here while Normandy was being a assaulted to all the different walks of life that came. Each one is fascinating. Thanks for just telling the story.
It’s been an honor truly. For the lack of a better word, it’s one of the coolest things I’ve done in a very long time, if ever. On General Beaurpere’s point, I have to say this one second. He is featured prominently along with everybody else in our D-Day Special, an unknown Heroes Behind Enemy Lines at D-Day the Story of Operation Jedburgh we dropped.
It was on 200 TV stations across the country. It’s on AFN, YouTube, and streaming platforms. We’re super excited to get that story out. It’s 21 minutes long. We did the whole interview with General Beaurpere about the Jedburghs before we got into talking about Swift 2030 and everything. I said, “Sergeant Major, we’re going to transition the conversation. Now we’re going to talk about Swift 2030.” He said, “I got one more thing. I just got one thing I want to say about the Jedburghs.” I said, “Okay, go ahead.” He said, “My grandmother was there.” The Sergeant Major and I look at the whole room, the camera guy and the audio guy. Everyone said, “What?” You just throw that out there.
It’s amazing. I didn’t know about that until a short time ago about Will, but very inspirational there and such a connection. We’ve talked about that throughout the week and you see the World War II Vets. It’s amazing to think about the familial and generational ties that run throughout the formation. It’s always amazing to me to hear the people’s stories.
I asked everybody else, so I got to ask you because we’re here and it is the 80th Anniversary of D-Day. We talk about the Jedburghs and putting those teams together but about the lineage that has come from Operation Jedburgh. The fact that these American Jedburgh was went on and formed the operations directorate of this CIA then we’re lifted out later on and became USASOC. Talk for a minute about the importance of Operation Jedburgh, what it meant, and not only back in World War II. Starting the night of June 5th, 1944, but what it means to the organization and USASOC now.
I’d start with inspirational. That’s what I think of. You think of the courage and valor of these individuals who’ve, first of all, volunteered to say, “That sounds like a mission I’d be willing to do.” Think about that bravery right there of like, “I’ll just jump in behind enemy lines or work behind enemy lines with the allies, partners, and small team.
At that time, there was no book. You pull out, “Remember we used to do this? Let me talk to the forefathers who did this before.” This was uncharted territory. It’s just inspirational when you’re talking about that and when I read about him every time. I’ve had the honor and privilege of a few years to preside over Major General Retired John Jack Singlaub’s funeral, the last remaining Jedburgh alive, which was just an honor for me, a professional, and a personal honor. Here’s someone I looked up to and only you read about then you get to meet familial members and some cases like here, meet actual living World War II Veterans.
These are the historical pillars that I looked up to growing up starting World War II and through the Korean War and Vietnam War and on and on. When I talk inspirational personally and professionally, it is like, “If I only could be half the man or half the soldier some of these people on what they did. The scale of their impact is something else is inspiration,” when you talk about small teams. Which is still prevalent to this day of SOF’s valued proposition without size impact. Whether you’re talking about temporal dominance in the domains or Admiral Mcraven’s book SOF maintains relevancy and dominance over a certain period of time and does something else.
Here we have the Jedburghs, with small teams having a completely outsized impact. That runs through our lineage and our legacy to the present day so I can’t get enough of it. I try to read as much as I can. I’m not an official historian. I know you had Troy on. The Jedburghs having small teams still runs through the lineage of present-day soldiers and veterans.
We kidnapped him. He’s amazing.
I want to brag about Troy for a minute. In 2023, we stayed at a manor right up the road from Omaha. Only because we were doing staff rides and he pulled out the train maps. Did he figure out that the limit of advance day one was that actual manor? He went on the website and found the lieutenant’s name who was the platoon leader at day then he got in contact with his son and got his diaries. He then figured out that not only was that the limited advance. We pulled up a picture of them. He’s wearing a German, basically a Junior ROTC uniform USD lieutenant. It’s like what the heck is this?
In 1936, he was a German exchange student. He spoke fluent German that he used that day when one of those guys got shot at the limit of the advance of day one to yield the Germans to not shoot that he was going to pull him back from that position. Troy Sacquety figured that. If you figured this is probably the most historically covered piece of ground in all of Europe as far from the military historian of the military historian. He figured that out and he figured out it was all the rangers that met up there as they were coming up the beach then made up to their ranger objective to reinforce point Duhawk came through that same manor that day.
He figured that out in 2023. That’s like Indiana Jones Lost Ark. We couldn’t be proud of him being the USASOC historian. If you want to know anything, check out the website that he runs and the heart and soul he puts into it. He’s a proud member of the team. I’m glad you got him for three hours. He’s much more on this and I am.
That’s a story that we’re going to tell with him, so I got to tell you that. We leveraged his website extensively for the making of the documentary. He’s been a great asset and the whole command. You can ask him anything and he was pointing at vehicles and was like, “That’s this vehicle.”
What we did get to do with him though is there was the cockpit of a C-47. It was on a trailer driving down the road, but it was bumper-to-bumper traffic. I hopped up on the trailer and I said, “Can we hop in here and get a picture?” He’s looking at me and I said, “No, Troy. Come on.” We got in the airplane and he looked at me and said, “I’ve never been in the cockpit of a C-47. This is my favorite airplane ever.” That made me feel good. We may have kept him much longer than he had planned but we got to give him something that he hadn’t had before. We were so impressed with him.
Isn’t it amazing that when you come here and you see all, I don’t know if the correct term is reenactors or enthusiasts or people who are spending their own resources? You see working Sherman tanks driving down the road and hundreds of Willy Jeeps, half-tracks, and C-47s. This is not government-funded. It’s very patriotic. If you have not been to Normandy during the anniversary, it is a life moment. All your readers out there, you got to get there and check it out. The patriotism is inspirational, too.
I agree and as I was saying, “What do you do with your tank?” The other 501 weeks a year, where does that go? “I’m in my tanks in the garage.”
I don’t have that problem. It’s pretty good.
When we talk about the Jedburghs, the irregular warfare, and unconventional warfare, these small-man teams, small-person teams who get out there and have these strategic impacts at a tactical level. That’s the mission of SOF. When we think about the Special Forces regiment, Psychological Operations, and Civil Affairs operations, that’s what we’re talking about. We’re going to start there then we’re going to get in arrangement and get in 160th and they’re very specific missions all so critical to our national security strategy.
To me, I think about this pendulum that we live in in our national security strategy, which is often a byproduct of the times that we live in. We go back to our history many years ago and we had this focus on these small teams, irregular warfare on conventional warfare that persisted for a while. We spent a lot of time in the global war on terror where our focus was counter-terrorism and counterinsurgency to some extent. You talked about having to write the book.
Many years ago, we almost wrote a lot of the book when it came to specifically counterinsurgency and a little more than counterterrorism, but we learned a lot as an organization through the global war on terror. Now we see that pendulum shift back. What’s the focus for USASOC when we look at unconventional warfare or regular warfare and the shift away from, I’ll call it persistent counter-terrorism and counterinsurgency?
A lot to unpack there. I would say, first, we do have distinct, different tribes, and organizations with USASOC and the Army Special Operations Command Umbrella. The most umbrella term that we wrap our arms around is irregular warfare because everything fits underneath it from unconventional warfare to direct action to CT to anything we’re doing. We’re going to talk about core competencies, missions, and roles there.
I agree with you, what runs through some of the stuff I called to do in present-day challenges, is the national defense strategy. It’s to have that same going back to the roots of our foundation of some of the things that Jedburgh and others did, small teams outsize impact. We challenge the force, whether you’re part of the 160, it’s the Rangers, Civil Affairs, PsyOps, Special Forces groups, the enablers, or anyone out there to be threatened formed on the current date threat, which is pretty dominant hearing and threat out there but to be strategically driven in everything you do.
We don’t need SOF to be duplicative of our conventional armed brothers or the joint forces. If someone else is doing it, we can move on to something else. Can you pull apart the definition of regular Warfare? It talks about assuring and coursing relevant populations and trying to change behavior. Hopefully, SOF is having that impact across the spectrum of conflict. That’s competition, crisis, and conflict.
The crisis might be counter-terrorism. It might be a neo-evacuation or a flare-up that would involve some light combat. Competition might be left to that, but what your role is needs to always come back to what’s the strategic purposes or strategic outcome that you’re trying to contribute towards. You could be working in South America or Africa contributing towards our NDS priority being counter PRC and Russia named the top two there.
I asked people to challenge themselves. What is your strategic impact? Again, no matter where you are, what you’re doing, and how are you contributing towards ultimately preventing World War III. That’s what winning looks like. That’s what we’re trying to do stay in that competition zone and maybe up to the crisis zone and avoid the high-end conflict.
Be sure if there is high-end conflict, USASOC, Army SOF, and Army Special Operations are going to have a role no matter what part of the formation you’re part of. It’s what we’re training to do and it’s a little bit of what we originated to do before, I would say the many years of counterterrorism and the rest. Sometimes I talk to different groups after reminding them we weren’t created for counter-terrorism. It’s something we do but it wasn’t why we were created, the whole force. None of the force was created for counter-terrorism. It’s something we’ve done for many years and need to do for the defense of the homeland.
We have other areas we have to invest in now, but regular warfare starts with being threatened form and strategically driven and everything you do then as you said some of it is dusting off the old playbook and some of it is uncharted territory of new technology, new challenges, new domains, new opportunities and where do you fit in there. That’s the journey we’re on now.
How do you stay threatened formed? How do we do that across the force?
Some of it is highly classified and just from the simple things. Getting more read on so that people know. Usually, when I’m talking to a group, it could be a group of civilians who come by for our CapEx or something like that. A lot of the stuff you can find on the open press of the threats where there are the PRC’s three forms of warfare or cognitive warfare or the different techniques that they’re trying to take advantage of our free and open society and asymmetrically take advantage of them.
You can get pretty educated in the unclassed world to realize the threat may not always be wearing camouflage uniforms and seeking to fight you on the plains of the battlefield. SOF is tailor-made for that whether it’s going back to Wild Bill Donovan asking for skullduggery and different thoughts. The mindset of SOF is tailor-made to think creatively and be value-added to the challenge that we’re facing because it’s not always direct. It many times indirect and asymmetric, which is perfect for SOF and army SOF to provide value.
One of the questions that I had asked General Beaurpere was, why is SOF the proponent for psychological warfare operations? One of the things that you talked about a lot is that part of Psychological Operations is informational. How do we educate people? How do we get them to understand that there is a threat out there? That China is a threat. Iran remains a threat.
When we look at the Psychological Operations capabilities of our adversaries and how we also think about it. There are so many levers we can pull with social media, the media itself, the traditional media, and broadcast media. How are we preparing our Psychological Operations, forces, and teams to advance, modernize, and think about, we used to do leaflet drops. The leaflet now is the scroll on Instagram.
I used to say we perfected a lot of things for many years of the global war on terrorism and counterterrorism. Some of that was the F3A cycle, finding fixed finished exploit analysis. Some of it was Ops intelligent fusion, network analysis, and network defeat. I used to ask everyone, “Everyone needs to be an intelligence officer. You need to read intelligence, produce intelligence, consume intelligence, and understand where intelligence comes from in order to be effective in the counterterrorism fight.” Information was part of that as well.
Now, I’m challenging everyone. I’m like, “You need to be an information officer. You might not be the expert psyops officer, but you need to care about it and have it part and parcel to every part of your plan for us to be effective.” That’s certainly what the adversary is doing and they’re investing in that. They think it’s critically important. I think it’s critically important. Perhaps, it’s the most important.
You go back to the definition of irregular warfare. If you’re staying in, whether it’s the competition phase. You’re trying to influence behavior. You’re trying to assure and deter. Even if you’re in high conflict, ultimately, you’re trying to stop a military, government, nation, terrorist network, and a different network to stop what they’re doing. You’re trying to influence behavior. If you’re going after that journey and not including influence and the information sphere, you’re going to lose.
We need to invest more like we are with the cyborg and irregular warfare efforts that special warfare centers doing with the academy and the proponents that we’ve had for a couple of years now and perhaps, the United States Army. It needs to be from the institutional Doctoral level, but it needs to get down to the tactical level too. You have a huge impact here. You look at Ukraine. There have been over 17,000 deserters and Russian deserters from the front lines.
When you compare that to the great heroic work of the ghost army of World War II and patents fake army and all the efforts they made. In 2024, given the Congressional Gold Medal there for all their heroic actions they did tying up German resources. The same efforts happening in Ukraine and elsewhere. Your modern-day Psychological Operations forces are having an impact. We can’t always tell their story but you’re correct. They’re embracing the tools of technology and the speed of information of which you’re in that domain as well. It needs to be every part of every operation. If not, you’re not going to meet your ultimate objective.
The cyborg school and the irregular warfare school are very fast. It’s fascinating to me especially because if we go back to 1952, the Special Warfare Center school started as a psychological warfare school. What’s your vision as you look at SWAG, you look at the commander and the sergeant major there and you say, “We’ve been charged with this. This is what I expect to see from it?”
It’s a monumental task for sure, but we’re doing everything from the schoolhouse as well as the tactical operational formation. On the schoolhouse side, we’re standing up the side we’re proposing school and all that to influence not only hopefully USOC formation but even the efforts from the United States Army and the United States military.
I think you’re aware we’ve had Marine Corps guest instructors there for some time. As a Marine Corps, since their personal through the school. We’ve even had in the past year Special Warfare officers start to come through the cyborg school. We see that as a growth opportunity and a critical one when you talk about the challenges of today.
There are investments across the force, whether you’re talking about some of the technical capabilities. We’re breaking down new barriers every day, whether it’s authorities and approvals because sometimes in the past it can be threatening to some different organizations, agencies, and communities of their equities, which is realistic. It has to be balanced but you have to be active in the information environment or you’re going to lose. You can’t react.
To me, it’s the first two sets of the narrative. It has the advantage and you can iterate off that. We have to change our mindset there. We have to teach up and out to make sure that how critical it is. We have to be active in the information environment. We have to educate better. People are capabilities across all the information-related capabilities, which are not just leaflets, even though we still use them. The loudspeakers, we still use them but certainly, social media has changed the game and the reach of the world has changed the game.
The military must educate people better across all information-related capabilities. Social media and the reach of the world have changed the game.
One of the terms that you’ve used when you’ve talked about the direction of the force has been this idea of cognitive warfare. I key on the term cognitive there because it executes everything you’re talking about. You just need smart people, the good people because the other thing that you set a lot is that people are the weapons system of USASOC. That’s our greatest investment.
We look at the SOF truths. It permeates across all five of them. It’s all about the people. When you look at the transformation, we hear a lot about army transformation. Transformation of not only the Special Forces Regiment and Special Operations Community, but the conventional army. How are you focusing on assessment selection recruiting to ensure that we continue to get those cognitive thought leaders who can get out on the battlefield where the battlefield might be a nasty place? The battlefield has also evolved where we need very smart people who can make decisions in real-time based on technology that doesn’t look like this anymore.
Full throw effort on that from the operational force to the institutional force to the sword, you name it, of bringing in the best and brightest because we need all walks of life. We’re trying to attract all walks of life, whether it’s Psychological Operations or the technologically aligned impassion. Young high schoolers out there or even already in the workforce out there. We need them. We need them to be part of the force right there, which is why we’re making some pretty big changes everything from looking at the SOF unit of action at the tactical level to where we’re converging effects across all five domains with space and cyber.
You mentioned and touched upon the human dimension, the army’s doctrinal term. I’d like to see that as the domain to be taken a little bit more seriously for working together on having that focus area. We’re also trying to create new specialties. We’re standing up a tech innovator and a tech integrator-worn officer position in the schoolhouse at the Special Warfare Center and School. If you haven’t paid attention at all to the battle and Ukraine or the Karabakh war before that. That innovation cycle, we used to talk about the F3A cycle. I think it’s the adaptation of new ideas and thoughts.
The adaptation cycle and the innovation cycle who’s going to win the current war and the next war? Who can adapt the fastest? Who can innovate the fastest? Innovate the idea. Adapt the formation, whether it’s a thing, technique, or procedure, and employ it, learn from it, and turn that tighter and tighter on the innovation cycle but we can’t leave that up for chance. We need experts. This is not an additional duty.
Whether you’re talking about the employment integration of robots and drones or the modern use of technology for Psychological Operations. It can’t be left up for chance. It confused me back in the day when I was still on a team that anything electricity went to the common guy. He’s got a battery. Give it to the common guy. I’m like, “What?” Believe it or not, even his computers were coming into the team room like goes the common guy. Is he supposed to be making calm? “Oh, a TTL device. A camera. It’s going to the common guy. He’s got a heavy rucksack.”
Not only in time and wait, but mental space there. I firmly believe we’ve got to be better than that. We have to not only provide the space but also the career model for people. We have great people who are 3D manufacturers printing, building their own drones, jailbreaking, reprogramming, designing claus on drones, or the first-person view drones. They need a career field where they’re not going to be tapped out and capped out. We need to embrace that, and then that needs to be turned on the recruiting side.
Every STEM and Robotics Club in high school in America needs to know they have a home. We have a home for them in the Army Special Operations Force. Do you want to come be a badass drone builder, badass coder, or badass 3D printer? We get home for you. You’re going to work with the best. You’re working with the best. Some of that might be with the unit of action, where you have to be in shape and travel with the team. Some might be in a bunker like this but with air conditioning but as long as you’re out designing the adversary to help that innovation cycle. We need those people, too.
Many people if you just flip it over to Civil Affairs or Psychological Operations. We’ve got anthropologists in Civil Affairs. We’ve got web designers and artists in Psychological Operations. Every walk of life, if you’re in high school American now, you probably didn’t know you could have a career in the Army Special Operations Force. You probably had this mindset, it’s only the middle linebacker or the captain of the football team we’re looking for. No, we’ve got a home for you in every walk of life. You’ll be a value-added member of this team empowered, resource properly, and given a sense of purpose. We’ve got nothing but opportunities, purpose, and mission out there across the world. Hopefully, that’s what’s going to attract the best and brightest because we need them.
As you’re talking I can’t help but think back to those Jedburgh teams who were mechanics, carpenters, authors, and came from all walks of farmers and teachers. That’s what’s great about the SOF Community, the Special Operations Community. When you come into the community, it’s not like you didn’t have a past experience that you’re now going to apply to your current role because that’s what they’re looking for.
That’s the diversity. That diversity brings strength. Diversity of thought, upbringing, and experiences. Huge force multiplier out there, especially when you’re talking about operating in small teams. Do you have something else you can rely upon other than just, here’s what we taught you because we’re not going to be able to teach you everything? That’s why we need to get back to assessment selection. You’re looking for those intangibles and characteristics that don’t change.
Diversity of thought, upbringing, and experiences is a huge force multiplier in the military, especially when operating in small teams.
Do you think there’s a chance to, I’ll say specifically the ODA and the most tactical unit of action? We’ve operated as twelve-man teams. Yes, we assign augmentation and enablers at times, but MTO has pretty much been the same for quite a long time. Do you foresee a change in that or do you think that these additional capabilities you’re talking about becoming enablers that get attacked?
I think we have to change. Usually, when we start that conversation or I’m asking people blue skies open though like, what do you want the SOF unit of action? Don’t even call an ODA. What do you want the SOF unit of action to be? What capabilities do you want? Whether it’s the next evolution of fighting in Ukraine, or the possible fighting any other in the Indo-Pacific theater elsewhere. What skills, attributes, and capabilities would you want on a team? We should drive that.
We got to get the books and the force design right or close to being right. That takes some time when you talk about how FM and force modernization works. In the army, military and SOCOM enterprise, it takes time to change those things. I don’t want to be the one who has volume two of America’s first battles if we weren’t prepared. We didn’t prepare fast enough. It should come for the next great war. Did you do enough to be ready for it?
That’s why I keep asking challenging questions about that. Usually, when I go to the ODA and Troy’s much more versed than I am but the original ODA wasn’t twelve man. It wasn’t. It started off of 15 then it was a 13-man and a 14 man. Even you look at some of the concepts originally based off the OPS groups and elsewhere and Aaron bank and others one of the larger. A lot of people hold on to the magical mythical twelve but they didn’t start off with twelve.
I would want and I do want more different capability at the team level. Now, having more capability and perhaps having a larger number to start with doesn’t mean I envisioned larger icons on the battlefield. Size and digital footprint can be pretty dangerous in the modern-day battlefield. Harkening back to the Jedburgh who operated with small teams there. It’s what capabilities you’d want in those small teams.
It’s everything we’re experimenting with. We’ve experiment with the size of the ODA already. We’ve experimented where we’re going to converge at. This is happening at the CTC’s. This is happening in the operational force. They’re all part of this experimentation but we have to modernize. We have to change or we’ll be behind the adversaries.
Let’s talk about the modern battlefield, the next Battlefield. One of the most impactful things I take away from the trip here to Normandy is D-Day in June 6th, 1944 in so many ways set the world order until modern times. What I mean by that is that the United States had a whole of society effort, the allies. We need to be broader than the United States. The allies had an entire whole of society effort that went into World War II.
One of the things that you have to imagine when you stand on these beaches is if you stand on high ground and take yourself back to 6:00 AM on June 6th, 1944. There were ships as far as the eye could see. That took years of industry saying, “We’re not making cars.” You talk about the choice washing the trucks that were made by Ford and Chrysler. They made weapons and radio’s. They didn’t make clothes for people at home. They made uniforms.
The whole society mobilized for years to culminate on this one day to change the world and set the world order and let everybody know he went to America means business. No one can stop us and that helped for very long time but now, in so many ways, we’re challenged like we’ve never been for a very long time. We can talk about the cold war and get into that. Certainly, the nuclear arms race was a different challenge and we face that one.
Now, we face adversaries that are multi-dimensional. They’re different domains to get to us, whether it be the cycle of operations, information, warfare, standard arms or conventional warfare. Whether we want to believe it or not, we’re in a naval new capabilities race with China. We’re in a space race. They just landed on the far side of the moon. If you listen to the NASA director, why do we want to go to the far side of the moon? It’s because we got to get to the South Pole first because that’s how you get to everywhere else. We’re in this fight with multiple adversaries. When you look forward and you assess the next fight, you talked about prevention of the peer-to-peer fight. What do you see out there in the world? What’s you’re top priority?
I’ll start with the past and maybe go forced out of the future of going back to what’s old is new of that industrial base, the might of the Western world helped be the biggest catalyst for winning on the individual sacrifice there. That took time for America to get ready for that. I know when Wild Bill Donovan went back to brief FDR after visiting, doing his own reconnaissance over here. He said, “We need to run a bush league game. We need to kill the empire, steal the ball and run out the clock.”
He had by time for that industrial base and the raising from Marshall to grow the United States Army to have the depth needed for successfully invasion then continuing on to the ultimate objective of destroying the Nazi war machine and ending the war there. Troy gave me the numbers.
Did he?
He gave me the numbers. I didn’t know this. In 1939, there were 130. I don’t remember if he said 130 or 150 or 150,000 people in the United States Army. By 1944, there were 9 million. There’s so many good things to read about that. When we talked about industrial base, you got Freedom’s Forge, a great book that talks about there’s retooling the automobile industry and the ship building industry and all that. A fair question is, do we have that type of time? We talk about the size of the army and the military. It’s quite small. It’s smaller than the invasion force that was invading Kuwait in 1990 to repel Iraq there. They were pretty tiny. We talked into the size of a 300 million plus country.
We’re going to have to be prepared to take every advantage we can with the current size of our military to make sure we have dominance across to all those domains. To the newest domains, you look at the Special Forces patch, the three lightning bolts on it air, sea, and land for the domains that existed when we sit up. There’s two more cyber and space. I don’t think we had moved fast enough and aggressive enough which is why we’ve been very aggressive in growth in those two domains.
I think SOF has a value proposition there as we work with our space and our cyber partners, which I do talk a little bit about our SOF space cyber triad, a modern-day triad and the tools of the modern-day triad in support of the larger strategic nuclear triad, but the tools of modern-day influence is revolved around what SOF, cyber, and space can do. It’s part and parcel and critical to modern day C5ISRT. SOF has a role in both enhancing, disrupting, degrading, and supporting the army in the Joint Force and some of that dominance in those other domains to provide other entities in the Joint Force to provide their capabilities.
Again, going back to SOF as unique role to play contributing back to the army and the Joint Force. I’m excited about it. I’m excited about where we’re at because it is uncharted territory. I don’t think anyone joined SOF to be told what to do, “Here is step 1, 2, and 3. Do this.” You’re probably looking for something different. I think people most come and stay statistically for purpose.
We provide nothing but purpose there when you’re talking about here is the and very ambiguous wide left and right limits of how you can contribute towards being strategically driven in these new domains against these adversaries. Which again might not be wearing camouflage uniform. I’m glad you said whole of society and whole of nation. Not whole of military and government but whole of society, what’s going to be needed to win in this conflict. Whether it stays in the competition phase or goes to high in conflict. The only way to win is a whole nation and a whole society approach.
I think that’s one of the hardest parts. For me, when you look back on from like the global war on terror and you think, “The military was at war.” Was the nation at war? We could argue that.
Lots of lessons were learned there. Great support from the American people. It’s almost embarrassing you get thank for your service walk through an airport or whatever like that or wherever you’re at an establishment. I love what I do. I’m still passionate about what I do. I love coming to work, being on a team, working on missions of consequence and work with people who want to strive to push themselves to be better who they are.
The thanking thing is always a weird feeling. What do you say? What’s the right thing to say? I love passing on one of our three current medal of honor winners. It’s our Major, Matt Williams. He’s one of our three which is incredible itself, three active medal of honor winners and soon to be two more added in the active force.
Those type of people, I’m inspired. You talk about the lineage and the inspirational people from World War II. They’re walking the halls now of your army Special Operations Forces that they get to work with every day. What he said is speaking engagement when he asked. “Thanks for your service.” He didn’t know what to say. He came back with like. “Be a citizen worst serving for.” He asked, “How can I repay?”
I said, “I don’t need repayment. I do what I did. I love what I do here, but just be a citizen we’re serving for.” That weighs heavily on me of how powerful that comment is there and when you think about it. Whether it’s in or out of uniform or your daily interaction. Interact with people. Be a good person. The world can use more of that but I don’t know if that answers your question.
That’s it and that’s good. I hadn’t heard that from Matt. a plug for Episode 140 which has Matt. It hasn’t even come out yet. As of this interview, it hasn’t come out yet but it’s coming up soon. How do you combat an enemy that doesn’t value life? We, as a Western Society, especially in America value life when we talked about people. We put our people of everything but when we look at some of our adversaries, they don’t necessarily value life in what we do. How do we prepare for that conflict? How do we think about that?
I would say even if you many years of the war on terrorism. It never has been done in a very highly kinetic fight many times. Some of it very conventional. It has been done to protect innocent human lives. Whether it’s the destruction of the Isis caliphate in Syria, which was very much conventionally forward line of troops, multiple obstacle belts and reattached. It wasn’t just terrorism operations, but extreme patience and extreme investment on avoiding innocent lives and civilian casualties when you talk about human shields and the rest of it.
You see some of that playing out in the information sphere in the Israeli Gaza conflict of how important that is to our society and the world society. It’s just something that in the long game is respected in the eyes of the global population in how we do respect of human rights and values out there. I do think when you think about World War II and large conventional warfare, there’s no doubt about it. It’s a different scale than any of us have seen in my life time. When you have adversaries, it just doesn’t even enter their calculus.
Hopefully, you can be turned on its head a little bit of influencing those to not go to great war. Look what’s going on in Ukraine. Here we are in this bunker. Everyone thought that would have been the last war in the European continent for our lifetime but here we are the largest ground conflict since World War II going on in Europe for land.
The battle and for land.
It’s tough. It’s tough when we have to envision. We have to challenge ourself when we think about those new domains and new weapons systems that can be used against us. How do we fit in? What’s our role to play? I do look as a good versus evil. The life of a soldier like yourself. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it on the battlefield and there’s just evil in this world. There’s got to be good people to stop that. I think it comes down to that.
That sometimes requires sacrificing even your own blood of what people have been willing to raise the right hand to support and defend the constitution and all the ideals it upholds around the world. Again, that gets back to what motivates me to come to work. That’s how you start out of those people who are willing to do that. That’s a great life to be surrounded by people like that who have that same passion and purpose.
It is a great life to be surrounded by people with the same passion and purpose as you.
That’s what separates us. That’s what separates the American Military from so many others who are out there. How do you assess the culture of the USASOC formation? For a lot of intent purposes and where we sitm we down ramped from a very high operational tempo. We have an entire portion. The Gwot generation, my peer group that ’01, ‘02, and ‘03 peer group who saw 9/11 came in. I went to a retirement ceremony for a guy I came in the army with and we shared a bunk at reception battalion and he retired a couple months ago.
You have this entire portion of the formation who’s retiring. The guys who were our mentors like my team started when I showed up. He said, “How long have you been in the army?” I said, “3 or 4 years or so.” He’s said, “I’ve been on the team for fourteen,” and you’re like, “I’ll be quiet here and learn from you.” Those guys understood pre-global war on terror. They’re retired. This generation’s retiring. There’s a younger group who’s now coming in. How do you assess the culture as you look forward to the next fight?
The culture is strong. Again, going back to I think people are our platform and we attract good people. Our multiple different assessments selection processes bring in the best of the best and we’re fortunate that way. We’re fortunate to have the best people but I think we’re strong. Mainly, our strongest value proposition out there, whether it’s inside the United States military or globally. We have the best NTOs in the world.
We have the most competent, professional, and non-commissioned officer Corps, I believe in the United States Military. Professional Warriors. Not taking against anyone else, but I’m just proud, honored, and trying to keep up with some of these people. Whether it’s the intellect or physically, always pushing ourselves. That’s why so many people are attracted to the SOF. “I want to be surrounded by people who want to push themselves.” We like to say selection is an ongoing event. Don’t care what you did 10 weeks ago or 10 days ago or 10 minutes ago. What are you doing for me now? How are you getting better? How you improve in your foxhole? That culture breeds on itself.
I don’t think we’re at a historically new point. It’s always been this way. For me, there was MACV-SOG guys running around when I got there, blue like guys and Sante Raiders. I said, “Look at these guys,” when they came in there. For my journey pre-9/11, I don’t ever remember coming to work pre-9/11 not being motivated because that day, we weren’t shooting or blowing up something or killing a terrorist. I don’t remember that in my mindset.
It’s a little bit foreign to me to think that someone would come and not be motivated. I get where people would be thinking. They parachuted into the first person Call of Duty modern warfare game and they think they missed their opportunity. The many years of Gwot, every rotation and location was different. I don’t think it was the same. Every fighting season or whatever. Everyone has this belief that was always this way or that way. Every rotation was a little bit different because the enemy was reacting. The different variations and everything was changing. The environment was changing.
Everything was changing throughout there. I don’t think there’s been this perfect moment. Even if you go back, again World War II. Everyone looks at the quintessential Black versus White and good versus evil. There’s a clear strategic goal and ended state is end state but it wasn’t too long. After World War II ended the strategic land state, it had changed and the Berlin airlift then had what unfolded with Marshall going as Truman’s representative and the Civil War in China at the time.
That was right on the cusp of World War II. Marshall retired for one day. He went down to Southern Pines and was gardening. He got a phone call from the president. He answered the phone and said, “Yes, sir. Yes, sir.” His wife’s said, “What was that?” He’s said, “The president just asked me to go and be the emissary there to go out to China at the time.” There are great books written about Marshall and there’s that chapter of his life, which is very challenging time for it.
On top of that, was on that job. He got called back for the Pearl Harbor Commission and he had to testify as they were looking for a scapegoat of sorts there. I don’t believe there was this just everything Black and White mythical perfect end state because of your World War II. Imagine the world’s upside down when you’re thinking just a couple of months to a couple of years to a couple of decades after World War II. Back to your first point, we’ve all been benefitted. International world order was set by those great patriots that did sacrifice World War II.
We talked a lot about information, understanding the operational environment, and the capabilities that exist within the use of stock formation to do that. We talked a lot about Green Berets and the Special Forces’ mission. Let’s talk about finding, fixing, and finishing the enemy and the two units under your command that do that. I’d say the best level in the world and that’s the 75th Ranger Regiment and the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. Talk for a minute about this strategic importance of those two organizations.
There’s nothing else like it. I wouldn’t say US military. I’d say the world. Rangers continue their lineage of the premier late infantry force with packing a well outside their size and capability and being a great thought leader. We talk about those present-day challenges and multi-domain operations. They’re doing some fantastic experimentation in multidomain operations.
It’s not your grandfather’s rangers. The grit, the determination, the valor, and everything that made a ranger in World War II that’s still there but now the tools are different. It’s amazing to see them continue to live out their Abrams Charter and help influence the rest of the army and the Joint Force with some of the stuff they’re doing. All the while, heal the toe deployed since the beginning of the Gwot and 9/11 and never coming home.
Still that way, providing unique value proposition there. I’m super proud of them. Unfortunately, we were hoping to scale the cliffs to Duhawk for the 275 change of command, which will partake in but the cliffs are eroding and didn’t pass the French safety standards. I got poked by one of my friends and said, “Since when did you ask for permission to do any of that about us?” He thought the old rangers would be upset about us, then the 160th.
I’d like to say, they can continue to make the extraordinary look ordinary. I don’t think people get the world class flyers that we have there. They get us to and from the target. They’ve made it common the way they’ve been able to get us in and out of target. The places they’ve landed that I’ve got to personally experience and see the difference they’ve made that no other pilot could do in the world under conditions where they’re being shot at or flying in between two buildings or on a roof. It’s amazing and it is not slowed down.
They’re more deployed and more busy now than they were a few years ago. It has not slowed down. You asked about that earlier. We’ve got 3,000 to 4,000 people deployed every day in 70 to 80 different countries. It hasn’t slowdown for SOF and it’s certainly hasn’t slowed down for the rangers or the 160th. On top of the rigorous training that is paramount to their ability to deliver their specialized effects on the battlefield. They’re unique and part of the crown jewels of all the formations that fall underneath us providing their unique capability for the air SOF umbrella there.
We had a chance to sit down with General Hutmacher a while ago and talked about his career and the evolution of 160. We got to try to set up a trip and go down there and do a piece. Also, do one with the 75th. That would be pretty cool, too.
We have so many great stories, which I appreciate what you doing with this show because I’m guilty as charged. I don’t personally like telling stories or personal stories and this is new for me as well. Great conversation with Jimmy Spencer, a second star major of MACV-SOG, a second star major of USASOC. He used to sign all this letterhead with the quiet professionals. He was just reflecting on that. He’s said, “Maybe we’ve been the silent professionals. We need to be a little bit better of telling our story and our value proposition.” Not out of bragging rights or anything like.
Part of it is education and information of what SOF can do for the larger army and the Joint Force. I knew I do a better job of that, but even for the American public and elsewhere. I’m trying to find that balance how you respectfully tell the story of our great people and the great organizations without one being offset or an intelligent concern for adversaries to glean from or to just not live up in a line with a values of our culture, if that makes sense. I appreciate that your professional approach been doing to of mining and harvesting these different ideas, stories, and vignettes and finding that balance. It’s been great.
It’s what I’ve always wanted to do. When you talk about your passion and what drives you and motivates you. Before I made the decision to go chase these guys with beards and long hair riding horses and saving the world in the post 9/11 days. I thought, “I want to be Tom Brokaw.” Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and Peter Jennings. I watch those guys every night and to me, that was the standard of professional journalism. Can we get out there and try to tell those stories?
To your point, without the pontificating some nonsense ideas that live in the extremes. We don’t have to tell war stories about, “When I was in the shit.” We can tell the stories of the regiment and the organizations that make up USASOC and Special Operations Command in a way that educates, informs, and drives the impact because that’s what we’re trying to show. This is what these folks are out there doing every day. To quote Matt Williams, “You get to be a model citizen that we get to do it for because these folks are out there doing it.”
What’s your vision of USASOC for the next 5 or 10 years? Where’s it going? What do you want it to look like?
Ready for the next fight, should it come. That’s what motivates me every day. Are we innovating, modernizing, and transforming fast enough? As I said, I don’t want to be at the precipice of that battle and say, “I wish I use our time more wisely. I wish we picked up the pace a little bit more.” Perpetually motivated every day to say, are we moving fast enough to be ready for that? Are we being impactful enough in today’s fight and competition then around the world for all the crises? It’s not a calm world now. Are we doing all of we need to at the pace we need to be ready for everything we’re doing?
It’s challenging. When you balance current day requirements and current day training. We need to move the goal post down a little bit here and have a vision that we’re striving towards. I’ve talked a little bit about that but are we doing it aggressively enough? That’s what motivates me there. The vision and we talked about that. I open up a little bit about that of being threatened formed. First, you got to understand the adversary.
I remember when I first deployed to Afghanistan early on in ‘02. Everyone probably read the Barrel of the Mountain. You learned all the places the Russians got ambushed then we got ambushed in the same places. There was another one, The Man Who Would Be King. Not the Rudyard Kipling one, but the Josiah Harlan one, about a Pennsylvania quaker who invaded Afghanistan. He had a couple books you could read. It was like, “Let’s go take the Al Qaeda course. Let’s go take the Afghanistan course.” That gets into the profession of arms and soldering, which is self-study as part of it.
It’s on you to learn about the adversary. We’re not going to spoon feed you everything because we don’t know everything. Some of that is going to feed itself. Being threatened formed as you be driven is part institution, organizational and individual responsibilities as well on that journey then operationally, focused and tactically prepared, good questions, and shoot moving communicate. What is a shoot moving communicate in a multidomain operational world? What’s different?
We spent a lot of time talking because you’re most precious thing ends up being time and how you spend your time. At the team aren’t level, what do you spending your time on? Are you being hard on yourself? Are you doing what you need to do or what you like to do for that fight? The culture is strong. No one agrees on everything and saw which is good. We have strong opinions, but everyone should be challenging the training calendar like what are you training for? What’s the most important thing and the least important thing?
I don’t think you want that prescriptive from the top. I try and ask those questions and put some goal posts out there what we need to be working on and contributing back towards. Whether it’s disrupting adversary C5ISRT or if it’s providing modern-day strategic reconnaissance. Perhaps, in cases you are doing, by through and Wiz sabotage operations with allies, partners and surrogates in the lake there. We need to keep asking ourselves those hard questions and not resting on our laurels.
Every day, we should question it. We should live up to our culture or ethos of having candor and asking hard questions. Was yesterday good enough for tomorrow? We got to be ruthless and call balls and strikes out on each other all the time. There’s a culture strong and the people are strong. We’ll get the rest of it mostly right. We won’t get everything right, but we can’t be afraid of changing because we might get something wrong.
I won’t rest for that. We got a paint that vision. We got to drive towards it and that’s where we’re trying to do underneath that. Again, at a regular warfare umbrella with asymmetric approaches. I hope we find extreme value in everything we’re doing. If someone else comes along and does it better or does it the same, good. We can move on to something else. We don’t need to be duplicative. We can’t afford it. Time-wise and resource-wise is part of the Joint Force. We should be probably unique and value proposition across that spectrum of conflict. That’s through a regular warfare. It’s what we do.
The tagline of the show is, “How you prepare today to determine success tomorrow.” As you said earlier, nobody cares what you did yesterday. It’s about what we do tomorrow. Last question is test question.
Not off the map.
I need you to reiterate how that bunker was used.
Magnetic North and true North. I’m like, “Declamation ending.”
You mentioned shoot move communicate. I’m smiling because habits are what formed the foundation of great leaders, great organizations and elite performers. I always think about the Jedburgh and even our modern-day forces who are out there. The three things you have to be able to do at a high level every day our shoot moving communicate because if you can do those things with the utmost precision just like when the Jedburgh’s parachuted in occupied France.
They didn’t need to think about, how do I use my weapon? How do I navigate through terrain at night? How do I talk? How do I use my radio? They had a larger focus that they had to apply their mental capability to defeating the Germans. What are the three things that you do every day in your world to set the conditions for success?
First, you got to grow yourself. You’re not coming to work resilient, refreshed, and you give it your all. You’re just not going to make it through the marathon long term. You might burn out. You might do well for short-time but if you’re not taking yourself and growing yourself. Whatever your resiliency comes from with, whether it’s your family or faith or whatever builds your internal resiliency. You need to do. For me, if it’s still a context sports, you’re going to be physically fit. It’s just part of being a warrior. You could be physically fit.
If you are not coming to work resilient and refreshed, you will not make it in the marathon of life.
I hope I’m a better husband, father, leader, and soldier. I’m certainly not as fit as I used to be but for my own mental health and mental resiliency, I got to do PT every day. I also try and grow professionally and find time. I probably do way more shows and audiobooks. I do actual reading because of time management. I get a lot out of that of reading back to historical vignettes and what others were challenged with in the past.
I draw a lot of strength from that new ideas, old ideas or the likes. Growing yourself is something you get to do every day and whatever. You could be anything. It could be music, your religion or your family, but that’s it. Coming home and seeing my wife and kids on the days. I do come home. That fills my resiliency tank there. It’s not balanced. Not throw the word balance out. There’s not 50/50. I don’t think that’s a realistic thing to say balance.
That’s a civilian world thing. You were talking about you and your wife and your kids. I’m assuming it’s not 50/50 and everything. That’s a little rich, but I do think it’s quality over quantity. When you do have them, you got to invest in that time. Again, my wife and kids are here to enjoy this lifetime moment of Normandy. I think that’s important. The second thing, I say, what do you do in a grow others? There’s plenty of great sayings out there. Whether it’s from the book legacy or grow trees. You won’t plant trees that you will never see grow. You can’t do enough on talent management and grow in the next generation.
Look what happened here on Normandy with the multitude of casualties and people stepped up or are they ready to step up? You got to invest in them before it’s time to step up. You can probably spend the preponderance of my time. There’s every day stuff and the most important stuff. It’s that talent management piece of it, whether it’s investing in individually or organizationally. Again, what are you doing out there to invest in others to make others better? Collectively, it’ll make a huge impact. Grow yourself then grow others.
Thirdly, whether it’s your fortunate enough to be in long as I have and reach a positional power. It doesn’t have to be. It could be the lowest power but continue to ask yourself, how do you make a difference in other people’s lives? If you make a difference in one person’s life every day, think of the impact you have there.
That could be helping someone out in time of need or a challenging situation that have nothing to do with work. Can you be there for them? It could be professionally of investing in somebody. You probably won’t remember what email you’re working on or what PowerPoint brief or what meeting you went to. If you can make a difference in someone’s life just a little bit. It might be just letting them know you care, down a rough day and you’re a teammate and a buddy for them. That’s a pretty cool opportunity.
When you’re fortunate enough to be the head of a large organization and have the opportunity to make a couple first downs and touch points and make a difference in someone’s life. You got to use your power for good, your rank, your position, and your experience and whatever you can but that does mean because you’re a general officer. You could be a team leader. You could be a Bravo Junior that you can you can lead up to and lead laterally. You look for those opportunities. I talked a lot about specified and implied task. That’s one of those implied tasks. You help make other people’s lives better. It’ll pay back ten-fold. I promise you that.
Grow yourself, grow others and make a difference in someone’s life. Alright, you taught, you asked. You said first downs. The last question, Jerod Mayo and Drake Maye get more first downs than the last group or what?
I’m excited. I’m a lifelong Boston sports fan. I grew up in the area as we talked before. We’ve had a rough couple of years. We’re going to turn around. We got a good draft. It’s going to be alright. It’s going to be okay. Drake Maye had a good pick up there. Even the kid out of Tennessee seems like he’s got a rocket arm. Patriot’s going to be okay. A couple of years to dig out of it, but never give up on them.
Again, my kids, I’ve got 22 down to five. They just grew up in the era where they think we win all the time. I’m like, “You don’t understand the pain I’ve been through my whole life.” It’s the Red Sox or the Patriots. I’m like, “This doesn’t happen all the time.” We’ve had a lucky couple decades. It’s been a lot of overseas deployments that my morale has been lifted to all the Boston sports teams. It was pretty funny.
You got spoiled fast. Thanks for coming down into the bunker and taking the time out of your schedule.
Is this going to be a new place all the time? Are you going to set up here all the time?
I feel like we got to. I basically work here. The amount time I spent getting another staff over the last few hours. We know they’re not going to forget us. We got to make this an annual community requirement.
Thanks for the opportunity and for what you’re doing for the larger enterprise out there both past, present, and future. I appreciate it.
Thank you. Leaders lead from the front always.
